Category Archives: News

An evening with our interim managers

We invited our interim managers for a social gathering with a lecture at HOBO in Stockholm on 10 October.

It was a really nice evening with an interesting discussion about breaking new ground. The number of participants reached a new record. We were pleased that we managed to get Anders Johansson, CTO at Husqvarna, to come and tell us about Husqvarna’s innovation journey.

 

Six tips to succeed in a Post-Merger integration

In newsletter as well as through press releases we are constantly greeted with the news that company A has acquired company B. The future is always painted bright as to the position the new constellation will conquer. The market welcomes the initiative and expectations are built.

 

Mergers and acquisitions (M&As) are often seen as a quick way to reach growth and there is often impatience from both the owners and the board to see the expectations realized. But when we hurry, things are bound to go wrong. Perhaps the acquisition was made upon the heels of a large cash flow and a sudden opportunity; perhaps it was done as a defensive move to minimize the competitors’ possibilities to improve their positions. Many companies, however, devote much time to their acquisition strategies before it is time to carry out the actual transaction. Management consultants perform extensive market analyzes and driving forces influencing the market are rigorously studied. The acquirer’s positioning is defined, the competition is analyzed, and other possible complementary acquisitions that would fit strategically are also thoroughly dissected. When it is finally time for the acquisition the board seeks the assistance of several experts for the transaction itself; auditors and corporate finance- and legal expertise. The whole acquisition process can end up costing the company a fortune.

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Post-Merger tips – Nordic Interim

Celebrating the Executive Interim Manager

Annika Muskantor has 20 years’ experience within Executive Interim Management with assignments at, e.g., Sobi, Bisnode, Zodiak television, and Ebay/Tradera. Her latest CFO assignment was at high-tech Scienta Omicron for 20 months. Annika lives with a partner and has three grown-up daughters. Energy boosters in her life is being with her family, walks by the sea, trekking, skiing, sailing, and cooking. 

Interim CFO with a passion that lasts all the way
You are never better than the team you are building. That is leadership to Annika Muskantor. Change processes and innovation are what she’s passionate about, but the management mission Annika leaves to someone else.

In her profession as interim CFO, Annika Muskantor is often asked: How do you do it? Are you just stirring up some dust?
– As an interim manager, you cannot just ”stir up dust” or suspend decisions. I take all executive decisions as I see fit and stand by them. You should not take on an interim CFO assignment if you truly do not believe that you will leave behind strong organization. Your successor should be up and running quickly, says Annika.

Make use of the economists
Annika tell us that quite often the mood is low at the Finance departments when she arrives. Few talk to each other. Half has already left the company, the other half of the staff works with music in their head phones. It is important, according to Annika, to make the department an attractive workplace and a platform for the whole operation.

Sometimes the finance department is shunted off somewhere, because everyone else at the company think that they are a nuisance and keep on nagging for receipts and invoices. Then Annika moves the department, physically, to a more central position in the office where they better can interact with the whole organisation.

– Make use of the economists, they should not be tormentors, we have the tax authorities for that, she says laughing. The team should be strong, cooperate and have fun together. The finance department should be in demand by the organization regarding basically everything from sales support to forecasts, and contribute wisely to increase profitability. That is the sign of a successful CFO.

Value added 
The motivation comes from value building.

– The stockholders pay for my work. It would be wrong to invoice the client if I don’t deliver more than I charge.

Annika often recruits her successor, and many clients have asked her to stay. She is driven by the change processes, there are other managers better at everyday management. Annika’s focus is always on what the organization needs.

She emphasizes the importance of bringing in competent staff and then to trust them. But of course, she’s there as a back-up if something does’nt go as planned. Building a culture where employees dare to ask for help. As a manager, you are accountable – never throw your co-workers under the bus or take credit for their work. However, allow them to shine.

– I’m responsible if mistakes are made – it means I didn’t keep an eye on things. That is the responsibility of leadership and it’s downside.

Some assignments are turned down
It’s the passion that has taken her where she is today. Annika has selected projects she thought seemed interesting and fun, and becoming good at what she does. This has led to more and more interesting assignments. However, there are industries that Annika avoid, for example addictive products such as cigarettes or gambling.

Integrity and boundaries are important to Annika, her name is her trademark. If a company is one payday away from bankruptcy, that is a challenge to Annika. Then you need to run parallel sales support activities, saving programs, negotiate with banks and financiers – while cleaning up the books. However, she sometimes detects financial irregularities in the companies such as fraud and corruption. Then the assignment will primarily focus on cleaning and correcting in cooperation with the management and auditors.

– So far so good, but I would never accept being the front for unethical or illegal actions.

Safe recruiting
On occasions Annika has been hired by recruiters and sent to a client without them even meeting her prior.

– Nordic Interim’s professional recruiters are the opposite and they are not shy to find different kind of references. This makes me feel protected, and they do exactly the same with the clients. I have never experienced an assignment from Nordic Interim that turned out to be different to what I have been told. Which have happened with other recruiters.

The price tag of a career
Annika’s career has given her a lot of joy and she says this is the best job in the world. However, at a price – her children have had to grow up fast and from time to time she has worked a lot.

– But I have at the same time always been there for my children. Even in negotiations, if they call I answer. On the other hand, they have heard the phrase “mummy needs to work now” more than once.

Annika is not regretful about this, nor are her now grown-up daughters. They have discussed this a lot within the family.

– I believe that my hard work has taught them that as a woman you can follow your dreams and do what you want. I hope that they follow their passions to the end of the road.

Annika Muskantor, Executive Interim Manager

By Eleonor Björch Lowe

Nordic Interim continues to grow

We warmly welcome Mikael Forss as Senior Advisor at Nordic Interim. Mikael Forss has many years of experience in leading positions within healthcare and life science in both the private and the public sector. Mikael has been Strategic Director and CFO at Astra and AstraZeneca, Deputy Hospital Director at Karolinska University Hospital and CFO at Region Uppsala.
In the role of Senior Advisor to Nordic Interim, Mikael will, among other things, participate in the continued business development towards the public sector.
Mikael can be reached on phone +46 (0)70 737 39 95.

Pioneer Executive Interim Managers are breaking new ground

Nordic Interim invited Executive Interim Manager to an evening at the Nobel Museum on the theme of innovation. The participants, both in and between assignments, exchanged experiences and discussed their views on innovative leadership in an industry that continues to grow.

 In his opening speech, Björn Henriksson stated that the demand for successful professionals, capable of running time-limited, complicated projects only increases:
– You are all part of engineering a new profession, and I’m struck by the collective expertise in this room.

Problem-solving and creativity

The theme of the evening was innovation, and the Nobel Museum’s exhibition Idéer som förändrat världen (Ideas that changed the world) were presented to the participants at the event. The Nobel Laureates work in widely different fields, they often have more in common than one might think. Everyone received the price because they’ve solved a problem – hence creativity unites them. And hard work. Another theme in the exhibition was the importance of honesty, and that you cannot advance if you are too attached to your own theories.

– That caught my attention during the show, says Joakim Kedbrant, one of the participants, currently working on an interim assignment as Senior Program Manager Officer in the health care sector.

He tells us that it is a particularly complicated case, where several major stakeholders are involved.

– In my role, I just set the ground rules, that everyone need to follow, and to make sure everything is communicated to everyone. It is important to remain humble, especially initially you need to listen instead of telling how things should be done. Just listen.

Executive Interim Management – An adrenaline rush

Annika Muskantor emphasizes the importance of being curious and able to listen to succeed as an Interim Manager. After working 20 years in this sector, she should know. Right now, Annika has just completed a 20-month assignment as CFO at a high-tech company.

– It’s a bit of fun, my dad still asks if there isn’t anyone who wants to hire me, says Annika Muskantor laughing. But there are other individuals better at managing. I’m driven by change work and to create. My strength is to make things happen and I need to move forward. It is such an adrenaline kick to work like this, to constantly push myself and to gain new insights.

Annika Muskantor has chosen Nordic Interim because she believes they do the most thorough background controls in the industry.

– Nordic Interim is doing a solid job as it goes through both the company and the candidates. This is important because you often need to start an assignment without a proper handover. You may, e.g., need to replace someone that has fallen ill and need to leave the same day, she says.

Emerging trends in the industry

Many of the participants discussed industry trends and how they look at innovative leadership. What kind of skills will be required within the next few years? The forecasts are sweeping and abstract. The most obvious, and what most people seem to agree on, is that as a manager you must be prepared to adapt quickly and effectively to the occurring situation. Ossi Mörnesten is the interim CEO of an industrial service business and believes that the interim management industry is the future. Companies will work more and more in projects and acquire the skills needed specifically for a certain project.
– To me, an innovative leadership means just being able to face a market that is constantly renewing itself, says Ossi Mörnesten.

 

Fonus journey for increased growth and business acumen


Is it possible for a 70-year-old cooperative funeral home to become a big business? Mikael Åbom, CEO of Fonus, tells about the transformation and why he hired an interim:

Fonus journey for increased growth and business acumen
– No one wants to visit a funeral home; Not until it is necessary, and you really must. My mission is to create a long-term successful company with growth, cultivate the brand and strengthen the business acumen, said Mikael Åbom, who joined the Group as CEO two and a half years ago.
With more than 900 employees, spread over almost 350 offices (Norway included), Fonus is the only nationwide and by far the largest of Sweden’s nearly 800 funeral homes. The company includes the low-cost option Fondkistan, Momento and almost 400 lawyers working for the subsidiary Familjens jurist. In 2015, we acquired Juristbyrån (legal firm) as the first step towards growth. Our factory Fonus träindustri (wood industry) produces coffins and urns, also custom designed. The total turnover, for this financial association with 2,300 owners, who in turn has closer to 5 million members, is one billion kronor!

Modernize business systems & structural changes
The average Swede will book a funeral once or twice. Many customers think that a funeral should not be expensive. A minority of the customers have funerals without a ceremony, at the same time the number of individually designed arrangements are increasing. Although Sweden’s population has risen, the number of deceased does not increase. Lower mortality rates are a consequence of people getting older. Fonus has underperformed financially for several years and major investments awaits in the future.
– Fonus had underinvested within IT and digital development, lacked a brand strategy and had problems with partaking and leadership. My mission is to modernize both the corporate culture, leadership, business model and customer contacts, as well as make the structural changes needed to get Fonus long-term profitable.
The customer satisfaction is high. Our employees have great knowledge, respect and care in dealing with the deceased and the relatives. But availability for the customers was too low with an old-fashioned business structure, which could lead to lost customers.

Leadership and teamwork
– It is a challenge to lead an organization in an industry where “sales, efficiency and profitability” is not obvious. Many employees have been working for a very long time in the company, which is now facing major changes. In our appraisal work, we define the core activities of the business as the “Customer Contact”, where knowledge, experience and confidence will be conveyed. What the customer is expecting is crucial. If it is right for the customer, it is right for us!
The customer is Fonus’ most important asset and the employees the company’s most important resource. To create energy and commitment, Mikael Åbom has focused a lot on leadership and employee capacity through increased communication and presence.
– It is all about leadership, rather than being the commander. And the importance of decision making. I have worked very hard to create an ease in communicating with a structure for the communication. In addition, it is the responsibility of every employee to search and access the information provided!
Every month, Mikael Åbom talks with his 60 executives, either in person or via web/phone meetings.
– Everyone should have the same basic support. We are about to launch Fonus’ first leadership training, we have recruited the right leader and been clear about where the company is heading. In the so-called Kunskapssteget (the Knowledge Step) we ensure knowledge skills are developed, most important for new hires. After 1.5-year work with this process, our evaluation will be rolled out after the summer for all employees in the Group.

Everyone is part of the creation of our digital business plans
To increase the employee participation, digital business plans were introduced for the 2016 fiscal year. Quality and results are expected to be reached within 3-5 years. All employees are invited in the planning and to propose goals for their unit/area with a maximum of 25 goals within 5 different blocks. The goals are linked, accompanied with activities and the employees in charge of the activity, and the description of the activity may not be described with more than 60 characters.
– We are building from the bottom up. Everyone has been encouraged to ponder about why they are at Fonus, what needs to be done, what the challenges are, what changes needs to be made and how it should be followed-up. It has resulted in 270 plans, which resulted in a plan for the whole Group.
Everything is transparent and is available on the intranet. The colors yellow, red and green informs how it proceeds and inspire others to ask for tips from the successful ones. It leads to knowledge dissemination, participation and pride.
– During this journey, job descriptions and employment contracts have been changed based on a new employee and leadership idea. The goal is the “what” – but most important is the “how”, i.e., the activities.

Experienced senior interim manager got the work done
When Mikael Åbom had begun to get a grip of the business, the Sweden Manager suddenly became ill. Mikael took over the leadership for three months, well aware that it would not work for a long period.
– A CEO cannot get involved in everyday details, but rather view things from above.
In order not to lose momentum during the recruitment, I decided to hire a committed and creative interim leader. The person would also support me in my analysis.
The assignment called for an experienced senior leader who doesn’t drop the ball – and is a fast learner.
Strategies are all very well – but this is about human beings. I wanted to get the right behavior all the way. Nordic Interim quickly grasped the situation and what was needed. It was a plus that Nordic Interim’s employees themselves had worked operatively and understood me and the challenge. Within short, I received several good candidates and honest feedback, with pros and cons weighed.

Nordic Interim found the right leader
Anders Carlson was assigned the task of this operative and important leadership role, in an industry known to be very conservative.
– I didn’t get a “consultant”, but a business-driven leader.
. The perfect match! The chemistry also worked well, and we evolved together. I am a bit anti consultants – “they never take the long-term responsibility” – but Anders was part of the company from day one.
From the first day and during the weekly reconciliation meetings, they ticked off or adjusted everything on the bullet list. Three efficiency projects were initiated and the implementation is now under way.
Many employees have participated and tested, and obtained both mandate and more responsibility. The spirit lifted, the participation is very good and the results are promising.
A brief assignment was extended and the contact with Nordic Interim was maintained on a regular basis.
– It felt like a guarantee that everything would work. Nordic Interim really found the right leader! In anticipation of our permanent solution, we gained considerable added value. It was the first time I hired an Interim Manager, but not the last!

”One day we shall die, but all the other days we shall live”
The transformation is underway, decisions are made and a new organization is created. Two major business systems are replaced and Fonus moved to a new HQ. Previously their 45 employees were spread out over five units. The business is now characterized by an environmental consideration and product development to provide “a personal farewell”, entirely according to the customer’s requirements. Regardless of culture and religion.
Next step is the brand. One of the steps is the recently launched podcast “Alla andra dagar ska vi leva” (All the other days we will live) with Oskar Kihlborg and Anna Mannheimer.
Fonus market share are increasing, as is the number of assignments. The business is growing. Four agencies have been purchased and twelve offices have been re-established. It’s vital to present the deceased’s memory in the right way. The personal touch is important both in funeral and legal matters! We are good at it – many of our employees that has been in the company for a long time feel that they make a difference and that they have a meaning for the customer.
We will now take steps to ensure high availability and offer the different services that are requested by the client. Online as well as at our offices.
– The common goal of the entire Fonus Group is to make people feel assured and to be supportive in decisions that concern this part of life.

 

The Interim Manager that keep on giving after the assignment has ended


Anders Carlson came to Fonus for the interim assignment. He was called “the temp”, a word that everyone understood. Nine months later, both company and employees understood that “a temp” really could contribute and add value.
– My goal is to add long-term value for both the clients and the staff. I want to achieve results that really make a difference for the customer, says Anders.
An Interim Manager need to be an up and running Executive and operational extremely fast, to be a tool for the client to reach specific goals. It is important that assignments, delivery and targets are clear and that they are continuously tuned between the parties, in this case Anders, the CEO of Fonus, and Nordic Interim.

For an Interim Manager to be able to contribute quickly, a proper zero-position analysis must be done at once. In addition to reading up, Anders spoke with as many employees as possible to create an overall image. Everyone were asked the same questions, e.g., Where are the improvement areas? What is important to you? What works? Who makes things happen? What symptoms are visible? And what are the causes?
The focus was to clarify the root causes of the symptoms identified, as well as test different hypotheses. Delivery must be planned initially so that I do not leave any loose ends behind. The more I learned, the picture became more and more clear regarding what I could possibly accomplish in my limited time.

True engagement for the staff
At first, some employees were doubtful and maybe even skeptical. It was important to show Anders’ genuine long-term commitment, having in mind the common good.
I was clear about me being part of the improvement process and to leave something behind that was better than when I arrived; Customer cultivation, sales and profitability, and to make Fonus an even better employer.
With approximately 25,000 funerals per year, all deliveries in the process must work perfectly. The employees really want to create a dignified personal farewell in a delicate situation.

Fonus consists of amazing people, dedicated, doing a great job in an environment where nothing must go wrong. During a brainstorming, we sought inspiration from other industries to develop our business and to motivate the staff in being part of the company going forward.
It was concluded that the potential for improvement was to develop the customer process, offering the customers improved availability, better conditions for new employees, improved collaboration between different offices, a change in the emergency services, and an improved logistics process.

Major efficiency improvements with the help of projects run by the employee
With the CEO’s approval, support and prioritization, Anders started three different project groups led by non-executive employees. They got a lot of responsibility and external support for the projects. Everyone had to show new and improved skills and several of the project participants impressed greatly with their commitment, drive, and knowledge.
When challenged to think in a new direction and gained a mandate to drive progress, energy and creative ideas were released. The teams worked efficiently and quickly arrived at new and achievable solutions. They even dared to challenge old truths.
The objectives of the projects were to improve both customer and staff satisfaction and to increase profitability by SEK 25 million. Addressed areas were coordination of transport and car pools, office collaboration, new on-duty systems and radically increased accessibility for the customers as well as a web support solution for the customers.

A change agent must be able to deliver good work every day
It is more challenging to be an Interim Manager than an employee. The mission is to be a change agent with a clear plan and get results in a short period of time. Lead times are shorter. Need deliver every day and can never become part of the daily routine of things. To dare also requires experience.
Already at the beginning of the career, Anders prioritized to be a good leader. Experience includes Group Management in state monopoly Wine & Spirits, as Head of Unilever, and as CEO of private equity-owned companies. He has also been a consultant, coached new CEOs and have been a mentor for almost 20 people.
Like most Interim Mangers, Anders is a senior leader with substantial experience, really overclassified if it had been a permanent service. Which is needed for success.
Appropriate qualities for an Interim Manager are: structured and focused on results and problem-solving. The success criterion is to be a relationship-creating, committed leader who creates expectations and get people onboard. I reached out to everyone and was approachable.

 

An Interim Manager is less prestigious, a doer and a hard-core decision maker


A long and multifaceted career has given Ole Oftedal a great deal of experience of the interim sector. Over the years, he has employed 20-30 temporary specialists or experts, and himself worked as Interim Manager. He calls himself a change specialist – with an impressive resume – who dares to do things differently.

This is his seven reasons to hire an Interim Manager

1.Better and less expensive than a consultant
Certainly, surveys are needed, but the answers and the information you need are always available if you listen to the organization. It’s more important to act than to do a fabulous analysis and to understand the details.

With consultant firms, you get a big team, and they would like to stay for as long as possible. An Interim Manager will cost less.

2. You can hire for a unique situation
All assignments are unique. By hiring an interim you get cutting edge. Instead of getting an “everyday” manager, you get someone who can give exactly what you need right now. It will give you full flexibility!
Sometimes you need to bring in new blood! There is always a need for an Interim Manager/ Specialist – such as digital development, sales or creating a new way of reporting or initiating behavioral changes.

3. 100 % focus on the task
To be efficient, the interim should be a like an injection; A temporary job, a project or a special task. An interim will focus on the task and is invaluable in transformations, e.g., strategy projects, implementations or when I want to grow the business.
We brought in experts to build up the business and control the routines. Little by little and step by step, we recruited the right skills for the long-term perspective.

4. Can be tougher than an employee
A lot tasks can be delegated, but someone must be the decision maker. An Interim Manager can make the necessary decisions and make then faster.
The most important difference is that an Interim Manager can cut to the point. An Interim Manager can be tougher and ignore internal politics, maybe even settle conflicts and challenge informal leaders.

5. Been there, done that
To fulfill an assignment, the Interim Manager must have the experience and done it before – even failed a few times!
An interim is not just a leader, but rather a commander. Not a friend, but one who will get results.

6. Less prestigious and a doer
An Interim Managers follows the set target and stand beside the political games. They lead through management by doing and not be prestigious. Making mistakes is not the end of the world; Better to act than not to act.
A seasoned Interim Manager is used to different settings and situations, not set in his or her mindset, and independent. If you work in the same organization for a long time you tend to get stuck in the same old tracks.

7. An interim provider sees my real needs
Sometimes I may not know exactly what I need. Nordic Interim asks all the right questions, helping me to analyze what I need, which they then supply. Many headhunters are sloppy when finding out exactly the candidates experiences and qualities, forget references on what the person really have done according to their resume. Did the turnover increase over those four years, did the margin grow, was the acquisition successful, etc.? You can learn a lot by reading the numbers and not just study the references reviews.

I appreciate Nordic Interim’s way of creating good relations with their clients, there is a deep dialogue between the client and the Interim Manager so that they can get onboard together and get to know their candidates properly.

Never hired an Interim Manager? Try something new! You got nothing to lose!

 

 

Interim Management should be part of every executive’s tool kit

Ragnar Norbäck, CEO of Nobina AB, has experience of Executive Interim Management from as being a manager for hire and as by hiring interim managers. He has been in this business for over 30 years as an interim CEO, reporting to a number of boards – and by now he now what is working and what is not.

Why Executive Interim Management?
The most important point is that I get more than I bargain for – during analysis, development, and implementation.
As a leader you handle important projects or changes that must be a success. With Interim Management we get access to skills that are hard to reach otherwise. These kind of people are hard to recruit. Their competence level is too high and they prefer to not be tied by employment.
I would say that Interim Management should be part of every executive’s tool kit, besides employees, staff, and consultants.

Are there any other advantages with Interim Management?
An interim is very goal focused, lacks internal dependencies, and can stay away from internal policies.
It can also be a way to think outside the box. In all recruitment, we strive to get the one that can do the best job, instead of hiring someone we like. When recruiting, however, there is a risk that we go by chemistry, rather than employing the best candidate for the job and that can reach the goals.
You might think that an interim manager would be more expensive than recruiting, but sometimes it is the other way around. Partly because it can become a mismatch, partly because we are missing the best work forces.
One of the interim manager’s absolute best value add-on is that they know “how to do it” by previous experience. Analysis is one thing, but sometimes extensive experience is more valuable.
Nobina’s definition of leadership is to get others to voluntarily achieve the agreed goals. Just the “knowhow”, without being able to lead, is not enough. Least of all for an Interim Manager.

What kind of relation would you like to have with your provider of Interim Managers?
Talking from experience I would say that long term relations are valuable. After the initial mission, the provider understands our business thoroughly and know what kind of support and input we need.
When you go into a dialogue with the interim provider, you should initially make an analysis of your own needs, and then to jointly develop a specification of requirements. You should ensure that you meet several candidates and not just go with the first resume you pick up. Finally, an interim assignment should be at least 6 months.

img_9395-ragnar-002 img_9395-ragnar ragnar-3

Getting access to a flexible executive force is becoming increasingly more important

Roger Henrysson, welcome to the Nordic Interim team!

What attracted you to become part of the Nordic Interim team?
– It’s great to become part of the industry’s leading company with its long history and good reputation. I’m looking forward to be working with the talented and professional team, and in a company with such a vast large international network. I will have the opportunity to grow in my new role. For 16 years I have been working as a recruiting consultant, of which the last 6 years at Agentum, an agent based network. It is great with a new challenge and to change mind-set within a field that I am passionate about.

Why interim management?
– The Interim Management service that Nordic Interim built solve several needs that were previously handled by either recruitment or through management consultants. However, the clients want more than a piece of advice from a consultant, and at the same time they do not want to be tied up with a permanent solution through recruitment. Clients are looking for a flexible executive force from experienced professionals. This demand is met by the fact that more of today’s best leaders prefer to work as independent professionals rather than go to the same work every day. Today, the Executive Interim Management is not primarily a solution to fill a vacant seat, but rather a tool to ensure the executive force in all aspects of an organization’s dimensions. Today we even see interim management as a solution to drive the digital transformation. Hiring an interim manager also gives the clients a chance to innovative thinking, like you used to do before with management consultants to get an external view.

How do you contribute?
– Interim Management is a new profession and the industry is in its infancy. Several new players would like to venture into this growth market. Innovative thinking is therefore important. Take the best from two worlds, recruitment and management consulting, and spice it up with new ideas. Through my experience in building close relationships with people, my ability to assess people and my background from Agentum, a new innovative player within recruitment – so I believe I can bring the company to the next level.

Tell us about the person Roger
– A curious relationship builder powered by getting people together and learning new things. I have travelled around the world twice, have a degree in human resources, and have spent the last 20 years with recruiting and as HR Manager. I am married to Lotta and we have two 10-year old boys whom I also coach in football. I used play football for a club up into my thirties. This year I have been running my second marathon race.